For the second episode of her new Spotify podcast Archetypes, Meghan Markle called upon a pop icon Mariah Carey as her guest.
Dubbed “The Duality of Diva with Mariah Carey,” the pair dove into the literal sense of the word diva, and why it has negative connotations these days. While the word has been used in an aspirational sense in the past, British tabloids have hurled the word at Markle in an attempt to tear her down.
Describing the show as, “my podcast about the labels and tropes that try to hold women back,” the duo places a microscope over why a woman’s ambition and success may be seen through a disapproving lens.
Doing her best to rein in her inner fan girl, the Duchess of Sussex revealed how important Carey was to her as a teen, asserting the importance of representation. Carey and Markle are both biracial women with lighter complexions. The Grammy-winner asked Markle, “Did you feel like, ‘I can tell she’s Black and white?’ to which Markle definitively replied, “Yes.”
“You were so formative for me,” said Markle. “Representation matters so much. But when you are a woman and you don’t see a woman who looks like you somewhere in a position of power or influence, or even just on the screen — because we know how influential media is — you came onto the scene, I was like, ‘Oh my gosh. Someone kind of looks like me.'”
The pair bonded over the mishaps they endured when hairdressers and family members didn’t know how to style textured hair. They also both said they felt pressured to pick one race or the other in their youths. “I didn’t fit in,” said the songstress. “It would be more of the Black area of town, or then you could be where my mom chose to live, were the more, the white neighborhoods. And I didn’t fit in anywhere at all.”
Carey’s father is Black with Venezuelan roots, while her mother is Irish and a diva, in the literal sense of the word. Carey’s mother was an opera singer, who made her debut at Lincoln Center and sang with City Opera. (I guess we know who to thank for Carey’s mind-blowing whistle-tones.)
Markle and Carey looked back on the history of the term, dating back to the 17th century. Then, a diva was referred to “the leading female voice in an opera, the prima donna.” Moving forward to the 19th century, the word was used to refer to “leading sopranos who became so famous and celebrated, that they almost became goddess-like in the eyes of their adoring public.”
However, by the mid-20th century, the words prima donna and diva remained in operatic vocabulary, but were also used as “more generalized, and slightly derogatory remarks referring to any ambitious, demanding woman in show business.”
Trying to dissect how people use the word these days, Carey said, “For me, they mean you’re a successful woman, usually. But also, and forgive me if we’re not allowed to say the b-word, but a b-i-t-c-h. It’s not okay for you to be a boss.” She continued, “It’s not okay for you to be a strong woman.”
Discussing the hilarity of Mariah’s grandeur and penchant for unabashed glamor, the two agreed that much of diva essence Carey conjures, is due to her style — how she presents herself. On that note Carey agreed, and said Markle was a diva as well.
“It was all going swimmingly, I mean really well, until that moment happened,” said Markle. “My mind, genuinely was just spinning with what nonsense she must have read, or clicked on to make her say that.”
“She jumped right in to make sure I was crystal clear, when she said diva, she was talking about the way I dress,” said Markle. “The posture, the clothing, the “fabulousness,” as she sees it. She meant diva as a compliment.”
Closing out the episode, Markle reiterated, “For some, reclaiming the words is what they feel will propel us forward.”
So, who’s up for next week? None other than Mindy Kaling.
